Punted! (and not even dignified with a whack of the Word)
Okay, obviously y'all didn't wish me enough luck, because I've already been punted from the fundamentalist discussion forum! I had wondered if this might happen eventually (like in a month or two), or if maybe I would just end up excusing myself for the sake of keeping the peace.
I'm rather disappointed. I was really going to try to be a part of their community. I wanted to put myself outside my comfort zone and allow myself to be challenged by their different views. I figured it would help me to get to know the Bible on a "quote-it-off-the-top-of-my-head" basis, which is an area in which I find myself lacking. They didn't even send me a goodbye e-mail or anything, they just disabled my login or link or whatever without any explanation. What kind of community is that? I wanted to learn from them, but instead of responding to my posts, they just slammed the door in my face. I am severely disappointed.
Here is my list of possible reasons I got punted:
1. The introduce-yourself thread asked for your favourite quote, and I quoted Orson Scott Card.
2. I pointed out that all the fundamentalist statements of faith I had read put scriptural authority as really really really important, but that the Apostle's Creed doesn't even mention scripture at all. I was curious what they thought of this. (Maybe they misunderstood the line about the "holy catholic church"?)
3. Someone had linked an article about what a horrible Christian Rick Warren (the Purpose-Driven Life guy) is. I was shocked and appalled by how utterly vicious the article was, so I said as much.
4. Maybe they found my blog.
5. I said I liked the Red Hot Chili Peppers.
Personally, I think #3 or #4 might be the kickers. Perhaps my tone in the post mentioned in #3 was too strong, but my stomach was seriously churning in disgust at how rude the article's author was! I actually agreed with about 90% of the content of it, it was just so un-Christian in tone.
Perhaps I assumed too much in bringing up a point of controversy. I have always enjoyed debates when they are edifying and challenging. Perhaps the forum people are not used to that kind of conversation and thought I was attacking them, although I very deliberately tried to formulate my words in a manner that did not cross any lines.
Ultimately, I am saddened. This experience was supposed to help me get to know some fundamentalist Christians and to understand them better. Instead, I find my negative stereotypes of fundamentalists to be strengthened.
12 comments:
Fudnamentalists get picked on consistently. You wanna know discrimination, act and dress and talk like a diehard Southern Baptist for a week. :)
But perhaps they simply did not want debate. Not all forums exist for that. I know that I'm combative, even though I've mellowed a lot in the last 4, 5 years. I used to debate EVERYTHING. :) But I have joined organizations/forums where they make it clear they are there for support, not debate and debate or controversy is not tolerated.
Perhaps you stumbled upon one such site.
Not everyone is there to answer your questions. That's one thing you need to keep in mind. Also, would you go to a gay or black or Latino forum and be purposefully inciting? Or would you be sensitive to their feelings and perspective? This may apply to fundamentalists as well. A group that perceives itself as under attack may well say, "No, not gonna go there."
BTW, "catholic" means universeal, not Roman Catholic. I believe in a "catholic" church, of which some Baptists, some Catholics, some Orthodox, some Pentecostals, some Anglicans, etc, are part of. (ie, all true believers are part of the catholic church.) That's our perspective. :)
I don't like the Red Hot Chili Peppers, but I do like Disturbed and Led Zeppelin. I love Orson Scott Card's writing (I own several of his books and just got his short story collection in the mail yesterday.)
I don't think Rick Warren is awful, but I have been part of a listserv that has discussed possible problems with his book. I didn't read or follow that debate. Like I said, I've mellowed some.
But I think if they perceived that you were there as a spy, rather than someone wanting to build bridges or understand, the shutters will come down.
Examine yourself. Did you go there to prove they were narrow-minded prigs, or to really have an experience with real people? They may have been very wrong in how they judged you, and I assume you may be wrong in how you judge them as a unit. (I guarantee that, like any group, they have their horribles.)
I get the feeling you're a good soul who really saw a sort of sideshow part of Christianity and wanted to check it out. But no one likes to be a sideshow. Fundamentalists believe they are following the will of God just as much as a creedal Roman Catholic. (And I've been Catholic, and I've been total rabid fundamentalist, and now I'm more of a mellow evangelica/fundamentalist who sees brethren across all Christian denominations and enjoys the variety.)
Oh, and I love Frou Frou's "Let Go." Only just heard them while watching SO YOU THINK YOU CAN DANCE a few weeks ago. Nice. And Bush's "Out of This World" mellows me out big time. I also own a collecton of Bjork videos, a cd, and have a long-term crush on Bono. (I'm old enough to remember him as Bono Vox.)
So, I hope you give grace to the fundamentalists. If they shut their door, they perceived something that they felt was not edifying. They probably were wrong, but I wasn't there.
And I won't be. I already got my hang-outs. :D
Mir--the Catholic loving Fundie...
Thank you, Mirkita. You have spoken to me more than any of the people on this forum did. This is precisely the kind of conversation I was looking for. You have listened to me and given me honest feedback.
It turns out the reason for my being kicked out was #4, the blog. Here is part of the administrator's response to me (which was only given once I inquired; I don't know if she was planning on speaking to me otherwise):
"Apparently, you have already made up your mind concerning the beliefs of Biblical Christians. So,I’m not quite sure what you were looking for with “a group of very frightened people whose beliefs churned your stomach,” however I do know one thing. You’re not going to find what you looking for on any discussion board or anywhere else until you “truly” find Jesus Christ. My prayer for you is that you may come to know the “biblical” Jesus Christ in a personal relationship as your Lord and Saviour. May God lead you to His Truth."
I replied as I did in my original application e-mail. I did not pretend anything about my beliefs, I admitted that I did not understand much about fundamentalists, and I said that I was seeking conversation that would hopefully help me understand others better and bring me closer to Christ.
I wasn't looking for a sideshow to pick on. I can see the deep passion that fundamentalists have for Christ, and I respect that immensely. I was looking for someone to present a real challenge to the stereotypes I may have held. I don't like thinking poorly of others--particulrly not when they're fellow members of the family of Christ--and I guess I was looking to be impressed. I wanted to come out of this forum with new friendships and better perspectives on who my brothers and sisters in Christ are.
I have asked the administrator to reconsider her termination of my account or at least let me view the forum without posting, because I want to know what people have to say to me. (I asked a really good question about how to remember quotable passages, and I never got the chance to read any responses.)
Basically, it just hurts that I was kicked out, especially since it didn't have anything to do with what I said on the forum at all.
Mirkita, thanks again for responding to me. It may sound silly, but it's good to know that I'm worth listening to and worth talking to by someone from the fundamentalist camp.
(P.S. I do know what small-c catholic means, but thanks for making sure! I meant that perhaps the readers of the forum had misunderstood.)
Also, I like to be humourous (even satirical when appropriate) on my blog. Hence the Chili Peppers quip. =)
Hmm. I'm not that surprised. A very high level of knee-jerk defensiveness is pretty common in fundamentalism. Even the fact that you're coming from a different part of Christianity and not immediately converting & knuckling under to 'Biblical Christianity' would be enough excuse to boot you.
But as Mir says, it may not be a forum for debate, but rather one for the support of like-minded folks.
And I like Mir's position. I may have serious issues with fundamentalist positions, but as long as someone recognizes that non-fundamentalists can be sincere Christians too, well, I'm ecstatic.
It's hard work believing that everyone in the entire world is lost except your clique.
It has come to my attention yet again that blogs and other typed-word communications can be terribly ineffective sometimes. I guess I assume that most people who read my blog are people who know me and can to a certain extent hear my tone of voice in their heads as they are reading.
I re-read some of my recent posts, trying to imagine I didn't know who wrote them, and they sounded different. I guess some of the comments I made in lighthearted jest (I do enjoy poking fun at things) could be read much more harshly if you didn't know a thing about me. If that is the case here, I am truly sorry for causing offense.
Again, this is just another reason to actually TALK to somebody rather than just shutting them out/up. Maybe they'd find out that I, a non-fundamentalist, can also be a sincere Christian despite my flaws.
...And the "high level of knee-jerk defensiveness" really just makes me think I wasn't so wrong about linking fundamentalism with a high level of fearfulness.
By the by, the forum was called a "discussion forum" in order to discuss issues affecting the church today. I believe I made my intentions clear (I've already described them so I won't repeat myself), and I told the administrator that if I did not fit into her vision for the forum, she should simply say so. She accepted me into the forum, so I assumed that discussions and debates were okay.
Well, the church (catholic, little c) has had problems since DAY ONE. So, if we have problems today, we're in good company. :)
I figure if you really, really believe that Jesus, Son of God, is Savior and the basic creed (I believe in One God. . .), not just mouth it, but believe it, then you are my brother and you are my sister, no matter how much we may vehemently disagree about the side issues. The one who saves is God in Christ through the Spirit, and God likes a big family, even if we're wacky and, sometimes, inconsiderate.
I look forward to our meeting the the great Kingdom, when all the differences fall away, and I believe we all go, "Oh, so I got THAT wrong!" :) Of course, it won't matter then, cause we'll be too busy being utterly blissful and fulfilled and full of light.
Mir
And yes, Deidre, we tend to come across a lot harsher and less nuanced in the internet. I suppose that's part of why we've evolved so many emoticons and abbreviations to add our tone: ; ), :-/, LOL, WYSIWYG, IMO, ...
But fearfulness is not what makes for the knee-jerk reaction. That also is a prejudiced-sounding and judgmental assumption, if you allow me to say so, myself sounding judgmental. :)
As you yourself pointed out, you went in with a negative view of fundies. Who knows how many times they got flamed?
Or maybe they really do want intra-community discussion (ie discussion amongst themselves, without judgment from curious and pre-judging onlookers, as they may have perceived you.) I think sometimes the mission of a forum is not as clear as it might be. They should reassess and set up guidelines to that purpose.
We don't always get things right in typed text, that's for sure. I've ticked off folks without even meaning to, just cause my tone didn't come out the way I intended.
Although, yeah, I am pretty blunt, and I admit it. But unless I'm ticked off, I generally don't intend offense. :-/
My advice: Love them, pray for them.
I was raised Catholic--even considered becoming a nun when young--and I remember the religion classes where I was taught that outside of the RC church, all were damned. I remember snide remarks about the storefront pentecostal and evangelical Christians in our ghetto neighborhood. My conversion at age 15 surprised me as much as my devout Mom and all-Catholic family.
Negative preconceptions dwell everywhere in Christendom's many camps.
Mir
Yes, heaven sure will be pretty fun(ny)!
Hi Diedre,
this is Alex writing. I´m really sorry for making use of the "blogspot" without posting any material comments - still I do hope you´ll overcome your troubles with the fundamentalist
"discussion forum". I am writing because I´m just enjoying some google-research on names from my elementary school - it´s not that this is what I do all day, it´s just too hot to study here in Berlin right now - and after "Christian Kropf" and "Jan Höhn" I picked "Diedre Reimer", remembering a girl who went (back?) to Canada in fourth grade or something. Maybe I made a mistake and you´re someone completely different - I apologize for my "comment" if this is the case -, but if "Kastanien-Grundschule" in Berlin-Steglitz sounds familiar to you or maybe you even remember "Alexander Eisenfeld" (which is my full name), once a rather small boy with blond hair, why not send an e-mail to:
alexander.eisenfeld@rewi.hu-berlin.de
Best wishes,
Alex.
Cool! A friend from grade 5! I've e-mailed him back already.
Anyway, to sum up this topic, I think I've spazzed out enough about it. I've probably made some ridiculously ugly errors in speech and judgement, but as many of you know, I deal with things by spewing forth my thoughts until they start to make sense.
The one thing that still hurts is that a place that claimed to be a community would ban me without questioning, warning or even notifying me. I cannot see how that way of treating people can lead to any sort of credible community, or any sort of credibility, period.
I wonder if maybe our perception of what it means to be a community has been coloured by our experiences at CMU, and in the Mennonite community in general. Obviously I don't think that this colouring is a bad thing - I love our idea of what community is! But perhaps this forum just sees community as a place, a location, not a breathing living entity, the way we do. This in no way excuses what is obviously (to me) a very unchristian response to your curiosity and genuine interest, but maybe it sheds some light on where it comes from.
Sorry you got punted, but points for trying.
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